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<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> Are there any new programs out, when I look at Wida's catalogue there only have been updates to windows OS from the old DOS systems
User [Laurent Borgmann /62.158.1.131] joined forum on Sun May 06 03:22:56 EDT 2001
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona>-><TomRobb> Hi Gavin
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> Hi Gavin
<Lesley>-><truna> hi truna wanna go gr too?
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> Hi Tom
<truna>-><TomRobb> email me tom, let me know when to expect you ..
<Gavin-D> Morning Chris - bit early!!!
<TomRobb> Hi, Chris!
<TomRobb> OK, truna.
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> I missed a bit of Chris's talk
<truna> or just the right time for a cold beer :)
<Gavin-D> Coffee at the moment
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> I managed to eat breakfast to the sound of Chris's talk
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<Gavin-D> So what's happening now
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> Is there any way to download CALL programs? I live and work in Thailand where there is still chalk and talk, CALL is more or less unknown.
<ericbaber> Gavin, coffee-break!
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<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> There's going to be a text only onlinr divussion I think
<ericbaber> The next session will begin in 5 mins.
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<Gavin-D> OK - thanks
<Gavin-D> All going well Eric?
<truna> <settles down with her beer and gets on with writing her lecture while she waits>
<TomRobb> I guess your students don't have i-net connections, then. There is a lot more to CALL these days than Wida
<ericbaber> Gavin, yes, thanks!
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<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> students mostly go to i-cafes only a minority have i-connection directly
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<TomRobb> The day will come soon when they all have connections.
<TomRobb> I barely have a student left here in Japan that can't get e-mail on his mobile phone!
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> caroline, where are you based and are you still with ELTAF?
<mickiz> We should be prepared for more internet and less CD
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> mickiz, I agree with you but Thailand is a threshold country
<Caroline Laxon> Hi, Wulf-Dieter! I've been in Halle/Saale for 6 years, still have informal contacts to ELTAF (but don't pay membership! :-)) an am a member of ELTAB-B (Berlin Brandenburg.
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> I agree with Mickiz, I think the future is in communication through the new media, not in storing lessons on CD Roms. The same is true for e-learning. Should be more about creating functioning learning communities
<truna> altho' i teach communication design in oz wulf and actually my students from thailand are amongst the most intuitive of designers in themedium
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> Caroline, I see you went east. Give my regards to ELTAF when you see them again
<Caroline Laxon> Will do
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<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> truna, yes design, they're good at that, but using computers - the majority know the word
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> Caroline, thanks
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> I am a bit confused. Will the discussion here only begin in an hour? Am I too early? Wrong time zone?
<ericbaber> Laurence, no the discussion will begin very shortly.
<TomRobb> We shouldn't knock CD-Roms, etc. They have their place, but I don't think its a productive use of teacher time for students to be using them during class.
<ericbaber> Cyprus is just setting up so that they can participate as well. Should be another minute or two.
<Geoff Waywell> <Enter Text Here>It is 9.35 here in Italy...no problem
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> tom robb, here it still would rather be giving them a disk or CD and train them how to use these media, as I said before - chalk and talk prevails
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Question: Have any of you used chat places like this one with their students? to connect them with learners abroad? Any good ideas for applications?
<Geoff Waywell> Re CD Roms, I have found that they are best used by way of reinforcement of seminar-based activity
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<Gavin-D> Laurence - done a lot of chat with students, but always in a controlled environment
<mickiz> hi sophie!
<Gavin-D> Morning Sophie!
<Sophie> <Hi sorry wee late
<Sophie> mrning
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Gavin, and what did you do with them? What activities?
<Gavin-D> Activities plus free chat with another class in anther country Laurence
<TomRobb> Students in Japan can't do chat. Their typing skills are too poor. By the time they get a sentence out, the topic has changed.
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<Sophie> yes, eric go ahead
<Gavin-D> Find out about the other people's city, etc. - it was one city to another, two classes
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<Jo S> Good morning all.
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<Gavin-D> We sent each other activity sheets
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Gavin: I have used chats in project work during European projects where students in different countries have planned something together. Was like telephone really, but some did not have the typing skills to react quickly enough
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> One to one chat in private windows is OK for slower typists
<Gavin-D> True - typing can be a problem
<mickiz> Tom - I think another alternative is e-mails/web pals. Then the students have time to write
<Gavin-D> Email is totally different from chat though
<TomRobb> Yes, I have the student list project for that. Truna helps.
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> How to find partner classes is a problem, though
<Gavin-D> Yes - we found them through our network of schools
<TomRobb> Keypal partnerships are fraught with problems. I've got a paper on that on my homepage.
<ericbaber> Sophie, can you read me?
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> We try, but is there any other chat partner class system?
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> My experience has been that it is very important to find the *right activities* rather than which medium we use. There needs to be some king of *game* factor involved
<ericbaber> Test test... Can people read me?
<Gavin-D> Yes Eric
<truna> maybe the dilemma could be solved by using problem solving activities rather than authentic audience activities .. don't you tink?
<Caroline Laxon> Got an URL for your hmepage, Tom Robb?
<TomRobb> Whatever is done needs to be structured in some way, with a goal, etc.
<Sophie> Eric, are you having problems
<TomRobb> http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~trobb/index.html
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> A good test is: "Would I really enjoy this activity for longer than 15 minutes" Some activities appeal only to teachers, I am afraid.
<Caroline Laxon> Thanks
<Gavin-D> Eric doesn't have problems - just a gremlin :-) ??
<mickiz> I am currently working on a web site with an instant messenger service, web pals and interactive "chat-type" games
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<TomRobb> How is it giong, Mickiz?
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> For readability, I would suggest to leave out all *meta-messages* in this chat
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<Sophie> Eric would like to make some announcements
<Geoff Waywell> Another solution is to base discussion on CDRoms of mutual interest to potential partners
<ericbaber> Welcome to the open discussion entitled "Can CALL live up to our expectations?"
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> And not to answer them, as otherwise it is difficult to concentrate on the discussion
<Sophie> Eric?
<ericbaber> Before we begin, just a few "house-keeping" points please:
<mickiz> beta testing so far the response is positive but we could use some help researching. Sophie are you still there?
<ericbaber> - This session is text-chat only - there is no audio, and no PowerPoint slides.
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<ericbaber> - You may wish to make the text-chat window larger. To do so, please click "Detach" - this will open the chat window in a new interface and will allow you to resize it
<ericbaber> Since there are quite a few of us here, please use the "Private chat" function (on the right-hand side of the chat window) to chat to individuals about anything not related to the topic of this session
<ericbaber> - If you've got something to say, though, say it! ;-)
<ericbaber> - This discussion will be recorded and will be displayed on the website after the conference
<ericbaber> And so, let the fun begin - Sophie, over to you!
<Sophie> Well, we^ve got some of our guests here
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> HELLO! we were having a discussion on the topic a minute ago
<Sophie> Well, may they would like to start with their expectations of CALL?
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> I found that using chat functions for projects worked a lot better when students had met in real life before
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<Sophie> well, if you have aready started let me not bother you
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<Sophie> Let?s simply cntinue
<ericbaber> Laurence, can you tell us more about that?
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Sometimes just sending pictures to each other helps as chat can be very *abstract* for students
<TomRobb> I think that there can be different expectations depending on what our goals are.
<ericbaber> How had they met - did all the participants live in the same country?
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<Lesley> I agree with Tom. I'd like to define the goals before considering the question. Do we even have the same understanding of this term CALL?
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> No, we had organised a *virtual* phase and then students used the new media to plan an excursion
<TomRobb> It seems that some still equate it with using software for language practice/reinforcement.
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<ericbaber> Laurence, in my experience chat doesn't seem to be too abstract for students; in my experience, it allows them to focus on the content of what is being said, and teh language being used.
<ericbaber> Lesley, very good point. What would your definition of CALL be?
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<Lesley> "CALL for me is the drill'n'koll stuff.
<Lesley> "Sorry drill'n'kill
<Sophie>-><ericbaber> I agree with Tom. I think too many people still think CALL is CD ROMS
<ericbaber> And others?
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Motivation to actually participate (and not lurk) came from the fact that the students knew that there would be a real face to face meeting later and the chat and video conference was only used for the planning (much like a tel
<Sophie>-><ericbaber> Drill and kill, Lesley
<TomRobb> Anything that uses computers to enhance learning.
<Gavin-D> Lesley - you make it sound a bit dull
<Sophie>-><ericbaber> That?s probably what most of the CD ROMS do anyway
<Gary> I don't see why other things have to be excluded from CALL.
<TomRobb> If we limit CALL to drill & kill, then what do we call everything else? :-)
<mickiz> cd roms for learning basic skills, internet for authentic communication
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<Lesley> The other stuff - cmc.
<Caroline Laxon> The terms seem a bit wish-washy to most. When you show people what the technology can do and how it can help, people will be more enthusiastic.
<Sophie> Well, often people do not much else than drill and kill, Tom
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> However, as I said before, chat and video had to be trained with the students. Not that it is difficult but otherwise they concentrated too much on the technology and too little on the communication (were too overwhelmed/impres
<Gary> You then spend a lot of time discussing acronyms.
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<Sophie> I don?t thik we should exclude other things from CALL
<Geoff Waywell> We have moved on a long way since the mechanical CALL of the 1980s to the interactive multimedia with links to the Web for learner guidance of today
<truna> isn't the problem here that CALL as a term carries with it a focus on functional literacy rather than education? surely the focus of dealing with technology has brought us into a more educationally oriented paradigm?
<Lesley> Exactly, Gary, but it is important to define terms otherwise one is at cross purposes.
<Gavin-D> Hasn't CALL got such a bad name that we need to think of something new to 'call' it?
<TomRobb> Vance, would you say that CALL == drill & kill?
<Sophie> The point is that for some people this is CALL .. CD ROMS and drill and kill
<Lesley> I agree truna
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<ericbaber> I agree that at the moment, for many people CALL=CD-ROMs, whether that's an accurate understaning or not.
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> I think changing the name because it has a bad reputation would not really help much. Researching motivation is the way forward
<Sophie> I never thought of changing the name Gavin.....
<vance in lab> resized window, i just argued yesterday for demise of the term CALL
<Gary> I agree with Sophie.
<Lesley> cmc, for me, is the interesting bit. I find it difficult to talk about my expectations of CALL per se, since I have none, based on the way in which I would define it.
<truna> i know that lesley is working on some very exciting constructivist type problem solving and collaborative activities
<Gavin-D> I like TELL - Technology Enhanced...
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> but there has to be drill at times and CAll takes this off the teacher
<ericbaber> However, I don't think that there is anything apart from people's current perceptions that inherently means CALL is only CD-ROMs;
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Could we hear more about the exciting stuff from Lesley?
<ericbaber> so we could either think of a new acronym, or just educate people that CALL is a lot more than CD-ROMs.
<Sophie> Surely the way forward is to train and inform people what CALL means nowadays
<vance in lab> what about blackboard enhanced learning, etc.
<TomRobb> I think people's perceptions will change as they gain the ability to do more than use software.
<ericbaber> Lesley, I'd say that cmc is one aspect of CALL.
<Sophie> I agree with Eric
<Sophie> Definitely CMC is a part of it
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<Lesley> I wouldn't, Eric.
<ericbaber> Tom, exactly - people's perceptions will change as they experience more forms of CALL.
<Lesley> It's something very different.
<mickiz> Gavin-if i recall from Barcelona you are great with acronyms
<Sophie> And the Interent for me is now integral part of CALL
<Lesley> It's about communication with people, CALL is to do with hci
<ericbaber> What we're doing right now for instance - text-chat - is cmc, which is sub-set of CALL.
<Gavin-D> I do like acronyms... occasionally
<Lesley> No, it is NOT a subset.
<Lesley> It is something else.
<ericbaber> Lesley, you say that CALL is hci - but that's only because many people think of it that way.
<Sophie> Where would you classify CMC Lesley?
<Lesley> I'd classify it along with communication
<ericbaber> Let's pull CALL apart: Computer Aided Language Learning. What in there states that it must be human - computer interaction?
<Sophie> Why can^t communication be a part of CALL?
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> wait a moment chat is reading and typing and CALL was supposed to get us to speaking
<ericbaber> What in there excludes human - human interaction, mediated by a computer?
<TomRobb> OK, who decided on the title of this discussion. Sophie? What did YOU mean by CALL?
<mickiz> I always use "assisted"
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<Gavin-D> 'Supposed to get us to speaking' ????
<vance in lab> Communication is the essence of language learning
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> And if we allowed only words longer than 4 letters here? I am afraid I am totally lost with the acronyms :-)
<Gary> I can't agree Lesley, I think that any term can be expanded to include other thinhgs and if you don't allow that you disenfranchise people who can't do the new thing, as it were.
<truna> perhaps it is time for a hegelian shift darlings, call as a word dates back to a computer presented phenomena
<Lesley> Nothing to do with widening participatiion, Gary. I see call as the textbook type stuff, cmc as the people-oriented stuff.
<ericbaber> truna, yes, that's when the term was first coined, but does that mean it can't include new developments?
<Caroline Laxon> That is a useful definition, Lesley
<ericbaber> Lesley, why must CALL be human-machine interaction only?
<Sophie> Tecnology and computers have changed and CALL should change along with these developments
<truna> like lesley, i differentiate .. i use the terms chocolate and vanilla myself ...
<Caroline Laxon> Why not have new names for new developmwnts?
<Lesley> CALL tends to impose the designer's views of language learning whereas cmc allows for the learner to take control.
<Sophie> But computers have changed and the ways to use computers and computer'assisted language learning change with them
<TomRobb> But cmc, too, has its own set of definitions. If I use a web-based system for intra-class communication, that isn't traditional cmc.
<Sophie> I think we could expand the meaning of CALL
<Caroline Laxon> If you lump everything together under the old name, it's not surprising that people are unaware of the more recent developments
<ericbaber> I think this discussion - while on the face of it irritating perhaps because we're squabbling about acronyms - is actually excellent in that it highlights a shift in the way we're using computers now:
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<Lesley> Exactly truna
<mickiz> but the name has negative connotations. I
<Sophie> hi Geoff
<ericbaber> in the past it was largely human-machine interaction, whereas now a lot of it is cmc.
<ericbaber> So just makig that point is worthwhile.
<vance in lab> I agree with Leslie. My talk yesterday was on baggage carried into CALL
<Geoff Taylor> Hi, sorry I'm late
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<truna> good on'yer eric, hegel still rocks
<vance in lab> imposing algorithms for development
<Sophie> Yes, for those who don^t know much about it but if you know then you take CALL with all the new developments included
<Lesley> I don't, Sophie.
<vance in lab> and if Language is communication, then CMC seems pretty apt
<TomRobb> Geoff, for penance, tell us your definition of CALL.
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<Geoff Taylor> Um, that's a big question
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<Geoff Waywell> There should be continous interaction between designer, tutor and learner using CALL programs via tthe internet
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<Gavin-D> How about BIBLE - Basic Internet Based Language Enhancement? Or is that too evangelist?
<Sophie> So you see immediately Geoff included the net
<ericbaber> He he he, I like it, Gavin.
<Tim Francis> <Enter Text Here>
<truna> how about literacy? :)
<Geoff Taylor> I think there are a lot of different types of CALL
<Sophie> People who are still not train do have the old image of CALL
<vance in lab> good one Gavin
<TomRobb> There's lots of stuff out there on the Internet for students to use for practice -- reading practice, if nothing else. Yet this isn't cmc nor is it using 'software'.
<Lesley> Well, then we come to what is the internet and what is the web, too. There's a lot of misuse of the terms there.
<Sophie> but what we need is to train and inform these people
<Caroline Laxon> This is why new terms are useful
<vance in lab> From stand up comic to typein comic
<Geoff Taylor> :-)
<mickiz> lol
<ericbaber> Lesley, absolutely (re. wrong usage of "web" and "internet")
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<ericbaber> Sophie, you're absolutely right, that it comes down to training and development.
<Geoff Taylor> Hi Tilly
<truna> <grin>the problem is of course that if the term is undefined, then so is the context ...
<Tilly> Hi everyone - it~s beautifully sunny here in Cyprus!
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<truna> and you end up with a 'pedagogy of the depressed'
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> Let's face it most EFL teachers have never heard of CMC, and this is a pity
<ericbaber> truna, hmm, not sure. I think maybe it's easier/more useful to look at the context(s), and then come up with a term to describe how things are being used?
<Lesley> <nods at truna>
<ericbaber> Chris, you're absolutely right.
<Sophie> Right Chis so what we need is training
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<Gavin-D> But who are the 'depressed'? Us, teachers not using CALL or the students?
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<Sophie> By the way I was jsut talking to a gradualte of a MA CALL and she had never hear of CMC!
<Sophie> Even some of the lecturers need trainig it seems!
<Lesley> I'm not depressed not to be using CALL.
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<ericbaber> Is that actually a commonly accepted term - CMC?
<mickiz> we might need training - our students most probably don't
<Gavin-D> CMC is definitely acceptd and widely used
<ericbaber> (Which of course begs the question of what a commonly accepted term is)
<TomRobb> It's rather American, isn't it. It conjures up Daedalus to me
<James Simpson> Crystal called CMC 'netspeak', which I think is misleading
<Sophie> Of course Gavin
<Caroline Laxon> I like CMC - it explains clearly what is involved
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> Most students are also unaware of the benefits of CMC
<mickiz> I think there can be a lot more than just communication
<ericbaber> Mickiz, absolutely - our students are likely to know significantly more about computers than many teachers.
<Lesley> Do you think that's a problem, eric?
<Tilly> Why be surprised at acronym ignorance - it^s not the concept they don^t know! EG in UK educational settings it usually goes under ICT.
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<Gavin-D> So why don't teachers use students' knowledge more?
<Sophie> YIu mean daedalus Iterchange Tom?
<truna> cmc is merely a term used to denote the computer as mediation - ie using a networkof some description - cmc magazine has been around since 94
<Lesley> "Exactly.
<truna> rather a good magazine actually :)
<TomRobb> Yes, that's what I mean.
<ericbaber> Lesley, I think there is a potential problem about students being more computer-literate than the teachers, in that it may intimidate the teacher, thereby causing them not to use computers at all.
<Lesley> The computer is only a tool, just like a textbook or whatever.
<Caroline Laxon> There's a lot of competition out there, marketing people, language schools, and i for one need to be able to explain things to potential students quickly and clearly.
<truna> ooh my favorite myth!!!
<ericbaber> For fear of being "shown up" in front of the students.
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> I like the word 'chat' (although cmc is more than that) because people have heard of it
<Lesley> Eric, I think that lack of networking and computers in schools is actually a bigger problem.
<Sophie> sure that is a problem Eric
<Gavin-D> I don't believe that - why be afraid of your students?
<ericbaber> Gavin, nice one - "why don't teachers use students' knowledge more?"
<Caroline Laxon> 'e-learning ' is a buzzword here although people don't know what to expect from it
<Sophie> I think chat is misleading
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<Geoff Taylor> CMC is only of need when the people you want to communicate with are distant. In my teaching context in the UK, it does not seem that useful.
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<James Simpson> 'Chat' implies to me only the social aspects of synchronous CMC
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<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> I think 'chat' has reputation for frivolity
<Tilly> The students possibly outteching the teacher is the theme of the IATEFL Teacher training 'Computer SIG weekend in November (Bell School Saffron Walden, UK}
<vance in lab> chat has a bad name in some parts of the world
<Caroline Laxon> Chat as a term is not businesslike enough for in-company training
<vance in lab> in the uae we are careful to call it synchronous communication
<Caroline Laxon> Yes
<Gavin-D> Takes 30 minutes to say it though, vance!!!
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<TomRobb> The computer can be used for many things, only two of which are communication among students & teachers, and practice with drill & kill. We use it for writing practice, intra-class communication (information on assignments), testing their maste
<Sophie> Yes, chat is associated with using the web in a meaningless way and wasting your time
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<vance in lab> as for students and teachers, this is a dichotomy that breaks down with cmc
<vance in lab> In webhead we had to stopcalling them students and teachers
<vance in lab> we call them friends and tutors now
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> Torn between acceptable to 'business' and familiar to students?
<vance in lab> it was getting hard to tell which was which
<Gavin-D> Though 'chat' by definitions is pleasant, real, useful to most people
<vance in lab> we^re all learners
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<James Simpson> Chat over LANs in classroom contexts does seem to be useful for writing and speaking, though
<mickiz> vance - I like that!
<ericbaber> James, interesting - how does chat help speaking?
<vance in lab> so teachers using students as resources and approaching cmc activities as partners
<vance in lab>
<Gavin-D> But we're not all *friends* !!
<TomRobb> Definitely useful for students at a sufficient level of mastery of language and typing skills.
<Sophie> Chat can be useful even if it is over the Internet James
<vance in lab> gavin has this way about him
<Lesley> One of the things that puzzles me often, when I watch teachers online - and I'm sure puzzles you too - is the way in which...
<vance in lab> how bout friends, tutors, and gavin
<Gavin-D> Ta Vance
<Sophie> It is just that there are some negative connatations as baggage with it
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<Lesley> "...they will happily send students off to a chat room and tell them to 'chat'..
<Sophie> For some people at least
<Geoff Taylor> (To James) But why not just chat orally if people are nearby? Why use cmc?
<Lesley> "It doesn't work, of course, because it's got no purpose.
<truna> ah task?
<James Simpson> Turn'taking on chat seems similar to oral FTF, but less confident students participate more
<TomRobb> That sort of 'chat' is useless. I agree, Lesley. There needs to be a structured task.
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<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> Chat can easily go the way of 'the conversation class'
<Lesley> Yes truna. As Ben Shneiderman has pointed out so often - it has to be meaningful, purposeful and engaging.
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<Tilly> Is there any ^turn taking~???
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<Gary> You could sya the same about CALL Lesley.
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<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> I like Gavi's idea that you have a structures part and a free part
<vance in lab> but computer based chat takes on directions
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<James Simpson> Maybe 'topic maintenance' rather than turn-taking
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<Gary> It is the task that is important there.
<Lesley> YOu could, Gary, but unless the learners are designing their own CALL programs, they aren't going to be that much engaged.
<vance in lab> in webheads, students have brought in video script andllyric libraries
<Gavin-D> We usually do a joint task followed by free chat time
<vance in lab> constantly showing web sites
<vance in lab> generally exploring online in partnership with the remote partipant
<Lesley> Tilly, what do you mean in this context by 'turn taking'?
<Sophie> Chat time Gaving do you mean free talking time?
<vance in lab> but we have no structure (don^t know how to do that)
<James Simpson> Keeping lrnrs on task is difficult, though, Gary. How much control does the teacher want?
<Gavin-D> yes - free talking after the task has been completed
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<Sophie> Gavin did you mean just free discussion
<Caroline Laxon> Turn taking (as here) has a different form from conversational turn-taking due to time delay, etc.
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<Sophie> on any subject
<Gary> I'm not sure I see this argument Lesley.
<Sophie> That?s not a bad idea actually. I like that Gavin
<relnour> hi everybody
<Gavin-D> I occasionally have them Sophie ;-)
<Sophie> But have you got enough time to do that?
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> This is like a normal class. People who finish early 'talk about the weekend' in y classes
<Caroline Laxon> There is no transfer of normal techniques in conversational turn-taking here
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<Gavin-D> Sophie - yes, when planned well there is time
<Tilly> Well in conversation you can tell when it^s your ^turn and then you shut up and listen but here what you say may be too slow and the chat has moved on to other topics and so you don^t seem to have had a turn at all.
<Sophie> How long are your sessions Gavin?
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<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> I'm greatly in favour of one to one chatting for students
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<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> this is frustrating
<James Simpson> Floor-holding is different in chat as well.
<Gavin-D> Sophie - usually one hour
<Christine> Hi
<James Simpson> To hold the floor in chat...
<Sophie> One to one is good Chris and so is small groups of 3 - 5
<mickiz> Is there something we can teach- to help students chat?
<Lesley> turn taking in voice over internet actually isn't that different from f2f.
<Tilly> Exactly Caroline - but someone was saying that chat did give a chance for turn taking or something similar.
<Caroline Laxon> Yes, Tilly. But this isno't only the case in Language teaching, is it?
<James Simpson> you tend to break up your turn!
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<TomRobb> 1-to-1 chatting would overcome the turn taking problem. I can see it as ONE useful kind of activity, but you can't build a course around it.
<Lesley> mickiz It's to do with the activity, not to do with 'teaching students' to do something.
<Caroline Laxon> I think it might work with one-to one
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Sometimes I ask myself why telephoning is used so little in teaching if chat should be successful. Is it really the costs? Or is it that we cannot impress students with telephones?
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<Geoff Taylor> Good point, Laurent
<Caroline Laxon> but look at this here!! This mixture is likely to send EFL students round the bend!
<Lesley> Laurence we did some work with telephone conferencing some years ago - it's not just costs. It's very difficult to set up meaningful activities that work.
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> one-to-one chatting also gets beyond the superficial more often
<ericbaber> Caroline, what mixture?
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> I have the feeling that we are fooling the students and ourselves
<TomRobb> Text is a LOT easier to comprehend, and for the teacher to see and control.
<Lesley> You can read about it in Stevens and Hewer in the Leverage conference proceedings of 98, I think.
<Caroline Laxon> Lack of visuals wth telephones
<TomRobb> You couldn't have a lab full of students talking on telephones!
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> and if the outcome is inadequate there is always technology to blame or students poor typing
<James Simpson> Control how, Tom?
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> good point Laurence
<ericbaber> Well, Tom, why would you do that anyway - a lab full of people talking to each other on thephone?
<Caroline Laxon> All of these crossed chat items, Eric - students could find it hard to follow
<Guest> <EIt is perfectly feasibele to have one-to-one dialogue based on a well-structured course - done it many times !nter Text Here>
<TomRobb> Control=understand and guiding the process.
<ericbaber> Surely it'd be more useufl to use the phone between people who are not in the same geographical place?
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Guest: please tell us more about successful applications. That is more useful than the problems
<TomRobb> There are time constraints when people are geographically separated (east-west at least).
<Caroline Laxon> I've tried TeleTraining and found it unsatisfactory as a trainer because you have o visuals
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<Sophie> Oh, yes sometimes it is really difficult to get online when others are
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<Gary> There are no visuals here, either.
<ericbaber> Caroline, I think we sometimes don't give students enough credit. I think they'd fare very well with this kind of "disjointed" conversation (I know they do, we've done it)
<Caroline Laxon> but it wasnt just chat, it was supposed to be a lesson
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> But with phones it would be sometimes all too obvious that the task is poor and there would be no excuses left
<Sophie> Especially over here
<TomRobb> It's the asynchronous character of e-mail,e tc. that makes it so great.
<Caroline Laxon> Yes, but what do they learn/practise, Eric?
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<Gary> Task ahs come up again.
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<Gavin-D> But email is so NOT immediate and tangible
<Caroline Laxon> Aren't there more effective ways ofpractising language?
<Gavin-D> I'm not sure email is 'great' at all
<James Simpson> Learners will be using chat more and more in their 'out of class' lives, so there is no reason why we should not use it in class.
<ericbaber> Caroline, of course you would need to introduce a learning task/exercise, but the chat-interface as such can work .
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<Lesley> There's strong evidence that chat of all sorts supports fluency development. It also improves confidence and risk taking strategies.
<Sophie> Chat does have a way of getting students really involved
<Caroline Laxon> Yes, with a task so that stds can follow one of the 'conversaTIONAL tracks
<TomRobb> My students in Japan will be using e-mail in English much more than f-to-f English in the long run, I think.
<ericbaber> Re e-mail: yes, it can be a good learning medium, and perhaps the best one if students actually need to send/receive a lot of e-mails in their working lives.
<Sophie> I can?t get the students to leave the lab when they are chatting
<Gavin-D> Big 'if'
<ericbaber> But it's no better or worse in total than synchronous forms of online teaching - it all depends on the learners' needs etc.. etc.
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> ladies and gentlemen, come down to earth and don't gett carried away by the medium of chatting and e-mails! CALL ist the question and has it met expectations!
<Sophie> Sure, but I think all of us will eventually need to send a lot of e-mails
<Tilly> It seems to me that what we^re crying out for is more RESEARCH cue Sophie{}!
<vance in lab> there was a thread recently on whether free language teaching was competing with paid
<ericbaber> Tom, if your students will use e-mail a lot in their working lives, that's a good reason for them to learn via e-mail.
<vance in lab> and I see chat etc as being extra stuff students do
<vance in lab> it^s all helpful
<Gary> Gd pt eric.
<Caroline Laxon> Some of my stds resist e-mail lang. learning because it seems too much like work (they get almost as many mails as you, Eric!)
<truna> i wonder if the expectations are then at fault? isn't this what has happened in the us where they have decided that they have been asking the wrong question?
<Guest> I agree eric but.....
<Gavin-D> Not only reaearch Tilly, but teacher training too
<TomRobb> I think we are all feeling different parts of the proverbial elephant here. It makes discussion difficult!
<Sophie> Thanks Tilly I am doing my best.... research research research
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> Class to class chats are one thing and individual studnts exploring chat possibilities is another
<Guest> there have been very few studies of microskills needed for email writing
<Guest> or resource books of activities
<Caroline Laxon> Elephant, I like it!!
<Tilly> Yes, that too Gavin I agree whole heartedly!
<mickiz> sophie-try to leave some time for me!
<Guest> teachers are not really sure what to do with it
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<Sophie> All of these could bring us back to our topic about our expectations
<Guest> and feedback from key pla projects has not been that positiove IMHO
<Lesley> Which brings us right back to training issues, actually.
<truna> wonders what such expectations might be??
<Lesley> And the fact that the computer is merely a tool like any other.
<Gavin-D> Training again...
<Sophie> sure micky : )
<ericbaber> Well, what HAVE the expectations been? For some people, the expectations were to replace human teachers with CALL. For these people, their expectations have not been met, I'd say.
<truna> and what education itslef is actually about ? :)
<vance in lab> right on lesley
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<Gary> and so cn be used in many different ways like any other tool.
<Gavin-D> They never will be met, Eric...
<Tilly> Teachers will be reassured in their changing practices if it can be shown ot be definitely beneficial not just tech hype.
<ericbaber> Others were looking for ways to supplement the human teacher. For these people, the expectations have probably been met, I'd say.
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<Gavin-D> Supplement - yes, replace - no
<Gavin-D> Or maybe 'complement' is better?
<Sophie> Could expectations have been to achieve much more effective learning
<TomRobb> Well, I know of one uni in New York that actually reduced the number of FL contact hours and substituted lab practice!
<Sophie> ??
<truna> surely such expectations should hinge on a definition of LEARNNG in a tech era?
<vance in lab> so we^re dealing with a tool that helps supplement whatever else is in the environment
<Caroline Laxon> Eric, some 'clients' don't know their expectations are not being met - they're the sort who'll take the garbage a translation program spits out on trust!
<Geoff Taylor> CALL is useful for Self study, e.g. with materials from the big publishers
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> This is the trouble with any "new media"
<Tim Francis> chat is politically important - it equalizes us
<Peter> i think the medium will not replace teachers but may be the primary means fo delivery in the future
<Gavin-D> It hasn't equalized everyone in this session!
<James Simpson> Those of us with computer access, Tom
<mickiz> tim - this discussion for example!
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> The hype they get, the kinds of discussions around them do not reflect that they are only media
<Caroline Laxon> Most companies' expectations are that computers are cheaper than live trainers
<James Simpson> Tim, sorry
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> not right: teachers feared being replaces by CALL, that's why many of them do not embrace CALL. And another item CALL does not always speak with the learner, hence to some extent 'drill and kill'
<Peter> as the second wave of internet developments brings audio visual rather than text based stuff, more people will get involved
<ericbaber> Peter, which medium? CD-ROMs? Text-chat? e-mail? ....?
<TomRobb> One thing that I think is very important for any type of software practice, be it cd-rom or online, is that there be a tracking function so that the student and teacher know what has been accomplished.
<Peter> and the development of virtual classrooms
<Peter> video conferenced lessons
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Try and read the Scientific American of 1889 about the new invention of the telephone: very similar to our discussion of defining CALL
<Peter> learners and teachers are just not that interested in text based interaction
<vance in lab> nteresting (1889)
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> However, a hundred years later this reads very "funny" as people seem to confuse the medium and what can be done with it
<TomRobb> Teachers like CD-ROM based call because they don't have to TEACH! Not a good reason, of course.
<truna> <grins> or that lovely book about the victorian internet
<mickiz> I seem to be teaching MORE with CALL
<Diana> <Enter Text Here>I agree with Tom about tracking - there seems to be a problem following up theautonomous learner whoprefers Call to class...
<Peter> I wonder Tom .....
<Gary> not all techrs use cd roms in that way Tom.
<Peter> how the teacher uses the medium is up to them
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> Nonsens, conscious teachers will always use CALL at the right time and for the right function
<Geoff Taylor> (Tom) yes, but maybe students also have more space to learn?
<Peter> I find those 100% CD Romlessons very boring
<ericbaber> Peter, that's true. When we first started teaching it was mostly text-chat and a whiteboard. Now it's all audio plus the whiteboard and other tools, and it's much more satisfying for the learner, and the learning outcomes are better.
<ericbaber> Though they were very good with text-chat as well.
<truna> <grins> but if you follow mcluhan and consider the medium to BE the message?
<Lesley> Actually, re text chat, I've been observing an interesting phenomenon when we've been working with audiographics...
<Peter> I'm looking forward to living on the top of a mountain near a beach in southern kyushu and delivering my lessons from there
<Sophie> yes, Lesley..
<Lesley> As soon as users find the text chat, they abandon voice. So, I'd have to disagree with the claim that learners don't like text chat.
<Peter> and I think students would enjoy the experience of studinying in their international living rooms far more
<Sophie> oh, I think they love it too
<ericbaber> Lesley, that's true - that happens in our lessons.
<Sophie> I personally prefer it
<ericbaber> We usually start in audio, then also open the whiteboard.
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> I do not believe in the media power itself. My motto is: "It's all about didactics - the rest is technology"
<vance in lab> That^s a good one lesley. <<<we were using hearme a lot and there was a text chat
<Caroline Laxon> The medium certainly changes the form and style of the content
<Peter> Lesley do you think they abandon voice because its not so clear?
<ericbaber> Quite often the learner will immediately start working on that, forgetting to speak to the teaacher/the other learners.
<vance in lab> sometimes it was all voice and othe r times we used the text chat
<vance in lab> depended on the situation really
<Geoff Waywell> Text Here>Mixed mode delivery and interaction, via CDRom and internet is one answer
<Peter> If it was combined with video do you think they would do the same?
<Sophie> Actually it can be very clear but I still prefer chat
<vance in lab> It wousl be interesting to learn waht that indeendent variable was
<Sophie> I think there would be many to shy away from video
<Gavin-D> So how many of us prefer text chat - just as a small sample?
<ericbaber> Peter, yes, I do.
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> What is the point of discussing the benefits of black boards at length? I am sure they did thogh. And maybe there was an uproar when those white magnetic boards came. A real revolution to teaching ;-)
<Peter> why eric?
<Peter> Is it just a quality issue?
<Tim Francis> it^s my first time ?i^ll gie it another go
<James Simpson> I do, Gavin. It's nice to know you can't see or hear me
<Gavin-D> Peter - a lot of this has to do with bandwidth and equipment, don't you think?
<TomRobb> I'm afraid that my students can't handle either text or voice. They don't have the typing skills nor the conversational skills.
<vance in lab> that^s not the right question, gavin. Voice chat would not work in this situaion
<truna> personally i prefer text environments with a visible architecture - a navigable space ... don't you think it opens up more possibilities?
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> one to one voice chat is just like the telephone - great
<ericbaber> Peter, we've found that people just don't use the video much. It's available in our one-to-one lessons, but we rarely use it beyond the first couple of minutes.
<Peter> yes Gavin totally
<Tilly> I think students (and all of us) are different - some will like it some won`t - I find it a bit choppy and breathless - I can^t keep up!!
<Peter> but now boroadbnand is changing that
<Peter> very fast here in Japan
<ericbaber> After that we just stop looking at it, as do the students, and we focus on materials as well. Students often don't even notice if we turn off the cam.
<Gavin-D> Vance - it was a general question, not for this situation
<Peter> interesting eric
<Peter> but what about group lessons?
<vance in lab> some students LOVE voice chat for the opportunities it gives them for langauge practice that text chat doesn^t
<Peter> do you use it for that?
<ericbaber> Peter, in group lessons we can't use video, so I don't have any experience of that really.
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> is voice chat in a lab parctical?
<vance in lab> who me_
<Peter> watching Vance at work with webheads leave me with the feeling that students are VERY interested in the voice chat
<vance in lab> if the chat is with remoter particpants it is
<Lesley> There's quite a lot of evidence from various research projects that people turn the video channel off.
<Peter> Chris we set up Hear Me when it was working here in the BC in Tokyo and used it very successfully
<vance in lab> they are at times for sure
<TomRobb> But Vance's students are there because that it what they like, no? It isn't an unbiased sample.
<Peter> Lesley do you think that is a quality issue?
<ericbaber> Lesley, interesting.
<vance in lab> they are self selecting volunteer students
<Gavin-D> :-)
<Peter> after all net meeting is notoriously choppy
<Lesley> We have been using structured learning activities via voice conferencing and audiographics conferencing for some years now. We will expand this to mainstream courses as of next February.
<ericbaber> Tom, but isn't that the best way of doing things - offering a certain mode of learning, and then people who like that mode of learning can go for it?
<Caroline Laxon> Don't forget it needs quite a lot of grey cells to process several windows on one screen, and video is probably hte easiest to do without
<ericbaber> Why inflict modes of learning on people who don't want it?
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<ericbaber> Peter, which part of NetMeeting are you referring to?
<Gavin-D> Anyone who saw what Gary et all organised for the video plenary at IATEFL Brighton should see the *possibilities* - excellent!
<ericbaber> Caroline, good point.
<Peter> I guess because i think it will appeal to those who have not yet joined the revolution eric
<Sophie> Well, people I will have to go but I am sure you will continue this excellent discussion
<Peter> simplieified interface
<Sophie> I will come back and read the logs
<Tilly> We have to go - other sessions ot attend. Thanks y?ll.
<Lesley> In answer to the video channel question, it's to do with the management of many windows and the problems of bandwidth among other things.
<Sophie> Bye
<Peter> nithing as simple as a video image of the teacher and other students
<Lesley> and nobody really uses
<Gavin-D> See you Sophie
<Sophie> Thank you all for coming
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<Caroline Laxon> Thank you
<Diana> Thanks vey much evryone
<James Simpson> Bye Sophie
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<mickiz> thanks
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<ericbaber> Lesley and Caroline, I can definitely see the issue of too-many-windows!
<Peter> With broader band services and more powerful computers do you think that will change Lesley?
<ericbaber> Bye Sophie, and thanks!
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<TomRobb> It was fun!
<Geoff Waywell> How can we get each others' emails?
<vance in lab> absolutely peter
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<Tim Francis> nice meeting you
<Peter> Yee haa - fellow traveller Vance!
<Gavin-D> Can I suggest you all join LTTECH ??? (or is that 'advertising'?)
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> Yeah. It was fun, exhausting but fun
<TomRobb> OK, I will.
<ericbaber> Geoff, you ask about e-mails etc:
<vance in lab> It^s important to keep i mind that netmeeting is garbled NOW
<Lesley> Peter, I don't think it will unless learners are engaged in MEANINGFUL learning activities - by which I mean things that are not just language lab with pictures.
<Peter> I think the impact of VRML and broadband is unimaginable at this point in time
<ericbaber> On the website there is a discussion forum topic for this discussion we've just had.
<Wulf-Dieter Kr?ger> So, waht did we learn from this chat?
<Peter> But Lesley
<Geoff Taylor> Thanks everyone, bye!
<ericbaber> I'd like to invite everyone to post anything there - thoughts, more questions, your website addresses and e-mail addresses.
<Gary> See you all some time.
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<ericbaber> The direct link is http://www.nll.co.uk/cyprus/forum/show.cgi?16/16
<Peter> I imagine the ability to look into antoher living room on the other side of the world , meet the family see what's on TV
<vance in lab> I^m hanging out here for a wuile
<James Simpson> Thanks eric. I will. And bye, everyone
<Peter> personally speaking I think it would be fascinating
[Lesley] has paged truna
<ericbaber> Gavin, go for it - post that on the board.
<Geoff Waywell> Which website Eric ?
<Gavin-D> will do Eric
<vance in lab> what^s^that peter_
<Gavin-D>
<Peter> and beyond that the ability to become who I wanted to be in a VR enviromnment
<ericbaber> Vance, NetMeeting isn't garbled in our experience - it's what we use for our online teaching, and on the whole it's excellent.
<Peter> sign me up!
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<ericbaber> The video isn't very good, but the audio is excellent, as is the whiteboard etc.
<Peter> and sign up all those students who are not interested in clicking buttons and links and reading their lessons I suspect
<vance in lab> Maybe you have the server for it Eric, or why is that_
<ericbaber> Just in case some of you missed it - http://www.nll.co.uk/cyprus/forum/show.cgi?16/16 is the place to post your contact details and discuss this further.
<Caroline Laxon> A lot depends on the stds end too
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Eric, please tell us more about that. What are the activities that you prefer to do in netmeeting. I used to use it quite a lot but have not for a while
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<ericbaber> Vance, NetMeeting does not require a server - it's client-to-client.
<Caroline Laxon> I found Netmeeting on Eric's erver choppy at times
<Lesley>
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<Lesley> Oops
<Caroline Laxon> One to one with others was fine
<Peter> Caroline if it was faster do you think you wuld use it
<ericbaber> Laurence, we use it to hold live online lessons, both one-to-one and groups. The activities we then use are pretty much the same ones we'd use in the classroom.
<vance in lab> ok, so the garbling is at Carolyn^s and Peters ends
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<Lesley> We use something else entirely. And we find it works well. We use it for negotiation, simulation, discussion, debate etc.
<ericbaber> Caroline, the q uality mostly depends on the user's end, not on an intermediary server.
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> What about good old msn voice chat for one to one?
<Caroline Laxon> Definitely - have begun do do demos already but no nibbles yet
<ericbaber> Caroline, you mean the audio was choppy at times?
<truna> i'd like to say thank you to the guests who came online to provide this discussion - late here in oz, i must go .. thanks very much everyone
<Caroline Laxon> Yes, Eric, it was
<Caroline Laxon> but we coped!
<Caroline Laxon> That's what I said - it depends on the std's end
<Lesley> THanks truna.
<ericbaber> Lesley, are you referring to Lyceum? That's an in-house OU program, right?
<ericbaber> truna, thanks to you too.
<Lesley> It is.
<Caroline Laxon> Some companies have firewalls too, so that could be a problem for the future
<Lesley> I am
<vance in lab> see ya truna
<ericbaber> Caroline, yes, that's very true - firewalls can be an issue.
<Gavin-D> Yes, Netmeeeting, networks and firewalls - bad combination
<Peter> will net meeting fot go through a firewall?
<Lesley> But it's not really the technology that's important. It's what the learning activities and underlying educational theory is that matters
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> Yeah, firewalls stop most chats on the British Council teachinf centre computers!
<ericbaber> Peter, it can, but most firewalls need to be configured for it, which most aren't by default.
<Caroline Laxon> If I cant get my stds online, then the theory is useless!!
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Are we all techies I sometimes wonder?
<ericbaber> Lesley, absolutely. The technology should just be there as a means and a tool, not the focus.
<Peter> Chris we got them to open up particular ports here in Tokyo to let streams go through
<Gavin-D> Netmeeting uses a whole host of ports - arcane config for the casual user behind a firewall
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> If we discussed using videos in the classroom and only talked about length of the tape or which cables we need
<Caroline Laxon> Yes, but get a 4000-strong company to reconfigure its firewall for little me :-)
<Lesley> YEs Eric. That's what worries me a lot. Many teachers get so caught up with the technology, they forget about the 'so what' factor.
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> we would know that there is something wrong with our discussion
<Gavin-D> What's wrong with it Laurence?
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> But with computers we happily stay on the surface of bandwidth and reliability
<Gavin-D> We have to wear many hats in this field
<ericbaber> Laurence, I don't think there's anything wrong with our discussion. There aren't any language learners here, are there? If we can't discuss such technological issues amongst ourselves,
<ericbaber> in order to be able to use the technology more meaningfully with students,
<Peter> Lesley, I think the over-ridng principle here is to be able to connect remote students in remote locations and break the monolingual classroom
<ericbaber> then where can we discuss them?
<truna> just before i flit - caroline many companies now have live agent chat on their website - check out semaphore .. they are using firewalls as a constructive device
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> no no I am not saying that, but I fear that we seldom get beyond that
<ericbaber> Yes, we may be "tecchies", but I do think that we all of course bear the pedagogical usefulness in mind as well.
<Lesley> Peter, the overriding principle for me is to develop appropriate learning activities based on sound educational theory.
<Peter> I agree Lesley
<ericbaber> Right Gavin
<Peter> yo are absolutely right
<Caroline Laxon> Right. The technology has to WORK for the std - and no time to fuss in a 'classroom' . . .
<Peter> and that is what we do in the classsroom everyday
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Lesley, this is what I meant, and this is where our strengths should be
<Peter> but I am interested in extending that classroom
<Peter> to all those who cannot afford expensive study trips to the UK etc
<Caroline Laxon> . . .so I hope to get a few answers here. Is that wrong?
<ericbaber> Exactly, Peter.
<Peter> and to allow them to have access to multilingual environments
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Working technology is such a minimal requirement albeit important
<Lesley> Peter, perhaps you should be aware that I work in distance learning ONLY. Our students do not have classrooms.
<Gavin-D> Me too Lesley
<Peter> I know that Lesley
<ericbaber> Same here, Lesley.
<Peter> I think there is a british council tie up with the OU somewhere?
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> Ahhhh, I did not.
<Peter> however,
<Lesley> I don't know. I'm not an English teacher.
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> I am trying to develop ideas for multimedia that make teaching *better* than pure classroom teaching
<Caroline Laxon> If the technology fails it can be all-important, just like no chalk, etc.
<Peter> i still think that being able to offer students remotee connections will aloow us to reach a greater audience
<Peter> and provide high quality language teaching to many more people
<Geoff Waywell> Eric, could you post that website again for contacts ?
<Caroline Laxon> We can only take it for granted or call it minimal when we can trust it implicitly
<Peter> to take what we do in the classrom into the world
<ericbaber> Laurence, when you say "better", I take it you mean learn particular aspects of language more quickly or more thoroughly?
<ericbaber> yep, Geoff - http://www.nll.co.uk/cyprus/forum/show.cgi?16/16
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> and to create more motivation than I could if we stayed within the classroom
<ericbaber> Or from the main site http://www.nll.co.uk/cyprus click on Discussion Forum on any page.
<Lesley> Peter, it will only be effective if the theoretical underpinnings are appropriate. And the technology will have to be enabling rather than disempowering.
<Lesley> And now I have to go to puppy class. Have a nice weekend all. Bye.
<ericbaber> Lesley,
<Gavin-D> Puppy class????
<Caroline Laxon> Bye Lesley!
<ericbaber> thanks very much for joining!
<ericbaber> Bye for now.
<Peter>-><Chris_Fry_Barcelona> Lesley I think that what happens now in our classroom is not so terribly theoretically unsound
<vance in lab> Chris tribble^s workshop is startign. We^re lookgin at a concordance download
<vance in lab> I^ll give you the url
<Gavin-D> Cheers Vance
<Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne> ok, bye! have fun
<Peter> Chris
<Peter> run that email by me one more time
User [Laurence_Borgmann_Cologne] left forum on Sun May 06 04:45:24 EDT 2001
<ericbaber> OK - I'm going to log off for now as well. Here are some URLs again:
<ericbaber> http://www.nll.co.uk/cyprus/forum/show.cgi?16/16 - direct link for posting your details and continue this discussion asynchronously
<ericbaber> http://www.nll.co.uk/cyprus - site for the whole conference, with links to the Discussion Forum as well
<Gavin-D> Thanks Eric - have a good day
<ericbaber> And the next online session will be at 13.00 Cyprus time ( in 1 hour 15 minutes)
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona> chris_fry_barcelona@hotmail.com
<Caroline Laxon> Bye Eric, see yo later!
<Peter> got it
<ericbaber> and the link to that is...
<Chris_Fry_Barcelona>
<ericbaber> http://www.nll.co.uk/cyprus/brett/index.shtml
<ericbaber> So, see you there hopefully!
<vance in lab> http://miniappolis.com/kwicfinder/kwicfinderdownload.html
<ericbaber> Vance, thanks for that - can you post that on the discussion forum please?
User [Gavin-D] left forum on Sun May 06 04:47:12 EDT 2001
User [Gavin-D /62.57.108.158] joined forum on Sun May 06 04:47:19 EDT 2001
<ericbaber> Bye for now!
User [ericbaber] left forum on Sun May 06 04:47:21 EDT 2001
User [Caroline Laxon] left forum on Sun May 06 04:47:41 EDT 2001
<Peter> best wishes to all
User [Geoff Waywell] left forum on Sun May 06 04:48:07 EDT 2001
User [Chris_Fry /212.7.63.1] joined forum on Sun May 06 04:48:27 EDT 2001
<vance in lab> Can you email it to me Eric so I can have a record
<vance in lab> I can email it to myself (silly me)
User [Peter] left forum on Sun May 06 04:53:00 EDT 2001
<Gavin-D> It's gone very quiet in here...
<Chris_Fry> I'm going to take a break for a bit
<Chris_Fry> See you all later I hope